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knarf_kee
V12 Member
Malaysia
2737 Posts |
 Posted - 19/02/2006 : 02:30:53 AM
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if it is true. is 5 years depending on 'car heat temperature' lifespam acceptable to you guys?
few points to consider.
1) we know malaysia's tempreture, so let's assume it can only last for 4 years. RM3000 for 4 years, meaning RM62.5/month.(assume no maintenance fee needed in between)
2) I believe power produced wont be good as pure petrol, so let's assume it can only produce about 80% power of engine with pure petrol(just like when you are driving an empty wira and a wira with 4 adults in).
3) it needs 20 liters of water to work with 10 liters of fuel. so if your car carry a 80 litters fuel tank, does it means you need to install a 160 liters water tank? If so, where are you going to put the water tank? and if you pump the tank in full, meaning you carry 160KG of water when it is full (it equal to about 3 adults in your car). if add on the declined power just now, it is like your wira carry 7 adults when your water tank is full!!
4) if you do not install a 160 liters tank but 80 liters instead, then are you going to pump WATER everytime when there are still half tank of fuel left in your fuel tank?
if all these take into consideration, 50% save of FC is a joke! should thanks god if it can save 20% of petrol (forget about power sacrificed). so is any of you guys will take it?
anywany, i am just simply think think say say and ask ask |
*WISH*WISH* |
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dkx
V8 Member
Malaysia
977 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2006 : 8:29:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rexis
Sound like a scam, all i can read here is a water tank, claims of saving up to 50%(again, up-to means no minimum, maybe zero), and a magic high pressure processing canister that can do tricks like split-water-into-hydrogen-and-oxygen and all unproven "proof". And then ten "scienctist" who has worked several years to invent this technology.
If they really want to prove it, I suggest they prove it like what Isuzu did with their 2.5 D-MAX?
Add-on system like HFT is the first of its kind and is suitable for all vehicles? Oh really?? First of its kind in Malaysia maybe. Maybe it is new for most people but i has seen similar claims many times years ago:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/two_onboard_wat.html
read the comments.
Yes water is H2O and we all know the formula 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2, but this is not plus and minus, where do you get all the energy to break the water molecule? Electrolysis is a very inefficient way to generate H2, thats why most industrial use of H2 is come from petroleum.
dkx, it is not whether the carburator can mix hydrogen with fuel or not, it is that we dont even understand the basic concept behind this HFT thing.
And this thing need RM3000? Maybe they know they cant cheat too many people, so people will like install it, after a while then only they found that it is no use, by then they already made a fortune and lari.
I am not saying that they are lying, i certainly hope that this HFT technology is real. But they said that there are ten scienctists, just sound like sciencetists themselves already a proof of the technology. And give lots of meaningless data that cannot proof anything. But where are the real proof? What is the fact? Where and who are these scienctist?
Pour water into an engine, my car also can lar, I always refill my windscreen water...
That guy from HFT Sdn Bhd had said in that news article that after splitting the water, the resultant oxygen & hydrogen gases would mix with petrol & flow into the carburettor.
As far as I know, the conventional carburettor is designed to mix only atomised petrol fuel with air from the atmosphere.
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw
If that's true, all progress in this world would then depend on unreasonable people, who in turn are the source of inconsiderate behaviour... |
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twilight
V12 Member
Malaysia
18188 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2006 : 02:16:00 AM
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From what I know at the moment the only way extract hydrogen from water is to apply heat to the water.
With current technology its not efficient enough as the energy gained from the hydrogen isn't double of the energy used to extract it from water.
if this HFT thing works by just 'filtering' then its a leap in technology that would be worthy news internationally. |
ahwil@lonelydriver.co.jp
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2006 : 09:22:17 AM
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Some ways to extract Hydrogen from water:
a) Electrolysis, some of you might did this experiment during your high school time. Pass a electric current thru water, and the + will come out H2 and the - will produce O2. And then teacher will then explain why the volume of H2 is double of O2. Electrolysis is very inefficient because you need a lot of electricity to produce a little H2.
b)Thermochemical process such as this one(apply heat to water?):
http://www.iea.org/textbase/work/2003/hydrogen/sessionii/Nuclear.pdf
The plans involved a nuclear reactor to supply the heat and energy. So i am not too sure that can a car engine supply this heat..
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1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2006 : 09:24:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by knarf_kee
if it is true. is 5 years depending on 'car heat temperature' lifespam acceptable to you guys?
few points to consider.
1) we know malaysia's tempreture, so let's assume it can only last for 4 years. RM3000 for 4 years, meaning RM62.5/month.(assume no maintenance fee needed in between)
2) I believe power produced wont be good as pure petrol, so let's assume it can only produce about 80% power of engine with pure petrol(just like when you are driving an empty wira and a wira with 4 adults in).
3) it needs 20 liters of water to work with 10 liters of fuel. so if your car carry a 80 litters fuel tank, does it means you need to install a 160 liters water tank? If so, where are you going to put the water tank? and if you pump the tank in full, meaning you carry 160KG of water when it is full (it equal to about 3 adults in your car). if add on the declined power just now, it is like your wira carry 7 adults when your water tank is full!!
4) if you do not install a 160 liters tank but 80 liters instead, then are you going to pump WATER everytime when there are still half tank of fuel left in your fuel tank?
if all these take into consideration, 50% save of FC is a joke! should thanks god if it can save 20% of petrol (forget about power sacrificed). so is any of you guys will take it?
anywany, i am just simply think think say say and ask ask
Nice approach in terms of practical use. So RM3000 for 5 years? Or use the same money and go for NGV?
Btw, i dont really understand this "depending on temperature" thing, is the thing need to keep at high temp or low temp? |
1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2006 : 09:28:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkx
That guy from HFT Sdn Bhd had said in that news article that after splitting the water, the resultant oxygen & hydrogen gases would mix with petrol & flow into the carburettor.
As far as I know, the conventional carburettor is designed to mix only atomised petrol fuel with air from the atmosphere.
I think it works the same way as NGV kit? Anyhow, keep guessing here seem like doesn't produce too much result... we shall wait and see the show. |
1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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FPR9
4-cylinder Member
142 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2006 : 2:04:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rexis
Some ways to extract Hydrogen from water:
a) Electrolysis, some of you might did this experiment during your high school time. Pass a electric current thru water, and the + will come out H2 and the - will produce O2. And then teacher will then explain why the volume of H2 is double of O2. Electrolysis is very inefficient because you need a lot of electricity to produce a little H2.
b)Thermochemical process such as this one(apply heat to water?):
http://www.iea.org/textbase/work/2003/hydrogen/sessionii/Nuclear.pdf
The plans involved a nuclear reactor to supply the heat and energy. So i am not too sure that can a car engine supply this heat..
Let's not forget the most common and economically feasible way of getting hydrogen: A byproduct of the crude oil refinery process... |
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Goldkeeper
1-cylinder Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 06:46:23 AM
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| Interesting thread... I wonder who is going make the first flying car. |
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 09:08:09 AM
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Someone already made it...
http://www.moller.com/skycar/ |
1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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dkx
V8 Member
Malaysia
977 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 2:09:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rexis
quote:
Originally posted by dkx
That guy from HFT Sdn Bhd had said in that news article that after splitting the water, the resultant oxygen & hydrogen gases would mix with petrol & flow into the carburettor.
As far as I know, the conventional carburettor is designed to mix only atomised petrol fuel with air from the atmosphere.
I think it works the same way as NGV kit? Anyhow, keep guessing here seem like doesn't produce too much result... we shall wait and see the show.
Well, that HFT guy also did mention in that news article that the water tank and that mystery miracle 'water splitter' canister are the only items in this system that need to be added on without any modifications on the engine. In comparison, a CNG (NGV) kit would be more elaborate and require some modification to the engine's fuel feed system.
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw
If that's true, all progress in this world would then depend on unreasonable people, who in turn are the source of inconsiderate behaviour... |
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dkx
V8 Member
Malaysia
977 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 2:18:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rexis
Some ways to extract Hydrogen from water:
a) Electrolysis, some of you might did this experiment during your high school time. Pass a electric current thru water, and the + will come out H2 and the - will produce O2. And then teacher will then explain why the volume of H2 is double of O2. Electrolysis is very inefficient because you need a lot of electricity to produce a little H2.
That is why might as well run a car directly on electrical battery power rather using electricity to split water to get hydrogen and then burn it in the engine for power.
quote:
Originally posted by rexis
b)Thermochemical process such as this one(apply heat to water?):
http://www.iea.org/textbase/work/2003/hydrogen/sessionii/Nuclear.pdf
The plans involved a nuclear reactor to supply the heat and energy. So i am not too sure that can a car engine supply this heat..
Might as well use a nuclear reactor to directly power a car (someone had thought about this in the 1950s), but of course, in practice, it would be too dangerous for everybody  .
|
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw
If that's true, all progress in this world would then depend on unreasonable people, who in turn are the source of inconsiderate behaviour... |
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dkx
V8 Member
Malaysia
977 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 2:22:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FPR9
Let's not forget the most common and economically feasible way of getting hydrogen: A byproduct of the crude oil refinery process...
I think the hydrogen gas that is produced in that way is meant more for industrial use than as a fuel.
For combustible fuels, it is more feasible to use what we are using now, hydrocarbon extracts refined from crude oil.
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw
If that's true, all progress in this world would then depend on unreasonable people, who in turn are the source of inconsiderate behaviour... |
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charsiewpau
V12 Member
Malaysia
3223 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2006 : 11:14:42 PM
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Woah.. I thought I was the only one that was initially skeptical.. looks like more have joined the fray.
I follow the adage "If it's too good to be true, it probably is!"  |
Charsiewpau is good to eat. Oh, and it's non-halal too.
Caveat Emptor!
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2006 : 12:24:45 PM
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I am the "this-is-too-fishy" guy, these so called sciencetist and CEO sound very much like just trying to buaya our hard earn money.
Nuclear car? Haha, that would be nice, because you only need to refill once say every 2 years. Most likely send to a workshop to refill. And then you will see many mutants mechanics working there... |
1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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twilight
V12 Member
Malaysia
18188 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2006 : 12:52:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkx
quote:
Originally posted by rexis
Some ways to extract Hydrogen from water:
a) Electrolysis, some of you might did this experiment during your high school time. Pass a electric current thru water, and the + will come out H2 and the - will produce O2. And then teacher will then explain why the volume of H2 is double of O2. Electrolysis is very inefficient because you need a lot of electricity to produce a little H2.
That is why might as well run a car directly on electrical battery power rather using electricity to split water to get hydrogen and then burn it in the engine for power.
quote:
Originally posted by rexis
b)Thermochemical process such as this one(apply heat to water?):
http://www.iea.org/textbase/work/2003/hydrogen/sessionii/Nuclear.pdf
The plans involved a nuclear reactor to supply the heat and energy. So i am not too sure that can a car engine supply this heat..
Might as well use a nuclear reactor to directly power a car (someone had thought about this in the 1950s), but of course, in practice, it would be too dangerous for everybody .
a car running on hydrogen has more power output than one running battery, right? |
ahwil@lonelydriver.co.jp
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rexis
V6 Member
Malaysia
395 Posts |
Posted - 23/02/2006 : 10:18:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by twilight
a car running on hydrogen has more power output than one running battery, right?
More power or not depends on the engine.
To produce hydrogen from electricity is an inefficient process, that means you lose a big percentage of energy to get that hydrogen. So why not you use the energy directly and 0% energy loss? This is to assume that if a car can really produce enough electricity to generate hydrogen and run.
By the way, the magic canister actually doesn't sound like a electrolysis device, because it will be affected by temperature. And they didn't mentioned that it use battery current to generate h2. Did they? |
1Msia? 1Joke.
What reduce emission, we are cutting it completely with electric vehicles!
"Take Care of your car, and your car will take care of you." - Frank Martin, Transporter 3 |
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benadean
V6 Member
Malaysia
444 Posts |
Posted - 22/07/2006 : 12:11:08 AM
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Its now almost August 2006. July is ending. Anybody have news on this project. Has it fails!!!!!! or success!
The price of fuels has gone up, if fail to sad for the ppl. What a gimmick and ppl suffer |
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charsiewpau
V12 Member
Malaysia
3223 Posts |
Posted - 22/07/2006 : 01:57:49 AM
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| Vapourware! |
Charsiewpau is good to eat. Oh, and it's non-halal too.
Caveat Emptor!
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Scooby5
V8 Member
Malaysia
804 Posts |
Posted - 22/07/2006 : 7:25:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by benadean
Its now almost August 2006. July is ending. Anybody have news on this project. Has it fails!!!!!! or success!
The price of fuels has gone up, if fail to sad for the ppl. What a gimmick and ppl suffer
Ford in the US is soon (I mean in a couple of months only) to supply Hydrogen fuelled buses and coaches as a means of getting it out there in the market. This is the first sale of commercially available Hydrogen powered vehicles anywhere, i believe.
The big problem for that is the set-up of Hydrogen Stations so hence introducing it in buses first since mostly they refuel from a central depot.
I think hydrogen and fuel cells is the way to go and hope something gets done really soon. |
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rikeys
V6 Member
Malaysia
313 Posts |
Posted - 22/07/2006 : 10:43:45 PM
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| for your info water now is expensive and will be more expensive soon as we can't just use any longkang water for this ! it's not economical to use water as our fuel source then the whole world will suffer.... its bad enough that we are running low on water catchment areas. somemore 20 to 10 means the more you use the more wastage involved! it should be 10 to 20 then we are talking about a breakthru! |
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2008!
Long Live MT NMT...
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Malaysian scientists invent fuel-saving system
